Ontolog Forum
Ontology Summit 2010 (Pre-launch) Community Input and Planning Session - Thu 2009-11-05
- Topic: Refining the ideas around the challenge of Ontology Summit 2010: "Creating the Ontologists of the Future"
- Co-chair: Dr. Steve Ray & Professor BarrySmith
- Agenda: This is a (pre-launch) communitywide brainstorming and planning session for OntologySummit2010.
- ==Archives==
- Slides: . [ 1-Ray ] . [ 2-Smith ]
- audio recording of the session (mp3)
- transcript of the online chat during the panel discussion
Conference Call Details
- Date: Thursday, 5-November-2009
- Start Time: 10:30am PST / 1:30pm EST / 7:30pm CET / 6:30pm GMT / 18:30 UTC
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Attendees
- Attended:
- Steve Ray (co-chair)
- Barry Smith (co-chair)
- Leo Obrst
- Amanda Vizedom
- Terry Longstreth
- Kurt Conrad
- Fabian Neuhaus
- Bettina Schimanski
- Peter P. Yim
- Ken Baclawski
- Yavuz Eren
- Doug Holmes
- Mike Bennett
- Michael Grüninger
- Frank Chum
- Antony Galton
- Jeff Abbott
- Arturo Sanchez
- Rex Brooks
- Todd Schneider
- Pavithra Kenjige
- Ravi Sharma
- (Also) Expected - registered participants:
-
- ... if you are coming to the session, please add your name above (plus your affiliation, if you aren't already a member of the community) above; or e-mail <peter.yim@cim3.com> so that we can reserve enough resources to support everyone's participation. ...
- Regrets:
- James Davenport
- Howard Mason
- Matthew West
- Nicola Guarino
Abstract
Increasingly, major national and international projects centered on ontology technology are being advanced by governments and by scientific and industrial organizations. This brings a growing need for ontology expertise and thus for new methods and institutions for the training of ontologists. The 2010 Ontology Summit will explore strategies to address this need in terms of curriculum, establishment of new career tracks, role of ontology support organizations and funding agencies, as well as training in the analysis and comparison of methodologies for designing, maintaining, implementing, testing and applying ontologies and associated tools and resources.
This is a a (pre-launch) communitywide brainstorming and planning session for those who are passionate about the subject and would like to influence and help drive the outcome by helping refine the ideas, organization and process, around our challenge of Ontology Summit 2010: "Creating the Ontologists of the Future."
See: our Ontology Summit 2010 Home page at: OntologySummit2010
- See also:
Agenda & Proceedings
1. Introduction and ideas Steve Ray (co-chair)
2. Some more ideas Barry Smith (co-chair)
3. Open floor for even more ideas (All) -- please refer to [ process above]
- Brainstorming of ideas that support the "Creating the Ontologists of the Future." theme
- o Topics, Speakers, Invitees, Sponsors, Marketing, ... and more
4. Summary and wrap-up (SteveRay)
Proceedings
Please refer to the archives above
IM Chat Transcript captured during the session
(The chat transcript below has been lightly edited to help improve on clarity of the conversation.)
VNC2: Welcome to the Ontology Summit 2010 (Pre-launch) Community Input and Planning Session - Thu 2009-11-05
- Topic: Refining the ideas around the challenge of Ontology Summit 2010: Creating the Ontologists of the Future
- Co-chair: Dr. Steve Ray & Professor Barry Smith
- Agenda: This is a (pre-launch) communitywide brainstorming and planning session for OntologySummit2010.
Please refer to details on the session page at:
http://ontolog.cim3.net/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ConferenceCall_2009_11_05
anonymous morphed into Bettina Schimanski
anonymous morphed into Kurt Conrad
anonymous morphed into Arturo Sanchez
anonymous1 morphed into Antony Galton
anonymous morphed into Jeff Abbott
anonymous1 morphed into Barry Smith
anonymous morphed into Fabian Neuhaus
anonymous morphed into Rex Brooks
Terry Longstreth: @barry: is this an extension of computer application
development? What are the pre-reqs?
Peter P. Yim: @Barry - can one get properly "trained" on OWL 2.0, say, in
- one day* ?
Peter P. Yim: or "ontology mapping" or even "logic for ontologists" ... you
would probably need a whole bunch of prerequisites to make the "one day"
plan
Todd Schneider: Barry, why is university accreditation needed? Are there
other organizations that could do this?
Frank Chum: @Todd, to guarantee a certain standard?
Todd Schneider: How about the Open Group? They provide administrative
services.
Steve Ray: I'm thinking that assembling a curriculum comes first, then
certification comes afterwards.
Todd Schneider: Barry, how were these costs arrived at?
Todd Schneider: Steve, I agree: The curriculum could be compressed to the
certification. I talked with Barry about this approach.
Steve Ray: @Todd: What do you mean, "compressed to the certification"?
Bettina Schimanski: How would this certification compare to other
certifications that already exist, like from Semsphere (http://www.semsphere.com/)?
Bettina Schimanski: I would like to clarify -
I did not mention Semsphere for any marketing reasons as I am not
affiliated in any way with this company. I just mentioned it as an
example of another company that also has provided certification
possibilities.
Todd Schneider: Steve, I'm assuming a curriculum would be more
comprehensive and a certification would be a subset of it.
Todd Schneider: The notion to be addressed is interoperability in the
broader sense.
Arturo Sanchez: Ontology creation and ontology use are tighly coupled ...
Peter P. Yim: do we *really* need "ontologists"?
... is it a profession, or a role tagged onto some exisiting professionals
... what is an Ontologists anyway? How many types of "ontologists" are there?
... maybe what we need are knowledge-engineers-plus,
or software-engineers-plus,
or systemn-architects-plus
(where, "plus" meaning those people with some additional training)
Peter P. Yim: Marketing questions -
- who needs "ontologists"?
- how big is the "market" for (various types of) ontologists? ... now, and in 1,3,5 years?
- how are we expecting "ontologists" to be showing up as?
- bring them in-house, as part of the software team?
- go to a university, and support their professors and research students to get the work done?
- hire an independent consultant?
- go to an established "professional services" firm that has the expertise to offer?
- assuming you were the hiring manager ... how much are you willing to pay for the expertise?
Doug Holmes: So, in what significant way is an "ontologist" different
from a knowledge engineer? There are courses of instruction that exist
in that area that might be leveraged...
anonymous morphed into Pavithra Kenjige
Peter P. Yim: Arturo Sanchez expressed interest to support in an
environmental scan on the issue at hand
Peter P. Yim: we can do an online survey (like we did in OntologySummit2007)
... join Antony Galton et al. in their IAOA effort?
Todd Schneider: Ontology development paradigms are more aligned with
systems engineering.
Bettina Schimanski: I agree that designing and building ontologies does
not solely rely on Computer Scientists. They are the ones to implement
them. The content, however, must come from SMEs, and not just from
biologists as was just mentioned.
Peter P. Yim: I got a proposal (from someone who has been watching how we
were doing the past summits) suggesting that we should have "proposals"
prepared as part of the summit deliverables ... that would take us one
more step, beyond just releasing a communique.
Rex Brooks: What kind of proposal did this person mean, Peter?
Peter P. Yim: @Rex - that person was referring to grant proposals
Rex Brooks: Thanks for the clarification. Would this be proposals in
response to RFPs, or unsolicited in terms of target area?
Amanda Vizedom: @Peter: I like the proposal to prepare proposals very
much. I'd like to suggest that this, too, be modular in that we will
have an easier time working through proposals if those focusing on
overall architecture are separate from those focusing on content
segments, audience, requirements, etc.
Todd Schneider: Ontology Works and Top Quadrant already provide training
services, among others. Could we get them to cooperate?
Steve Ray: @Todd: I was just talking to Ralph Hodgson of TopQuadrant
about this yesterday, and he did have some suggestions, so I'd say yes,
I believe they would participate.
Frank Chum: Semantic Arts also provide a 5-day ontology design training
course
Bettina Schimanski: @Todd: I know Top Quadrant has been very open with
training at conferences so I would think, if invited, they might be
interested. I am unfamiliar with Ontology Works.
Amanda Vizedom: If we want to produce a truly usable and meaningful
certification, we need to make sure we are addressing, in both content
and presentation, the broad range of very different practices that come
under the heading of Ontology.
Bettina Schimanski: @Frank: I am also aware of this Semantic Arts course
and have good things to say about it.
Frank Chum: @Bettina: The course has been taught by DaveMcComb and his
staff. I took it a few years ago. It was really good.
Amanda Vizedom: ... I don't mean the bad stuff, obviously. I do mean that
we need to consider that some ontologists are focused on creating a
single-viewed best possible model of some part of the world, in
abstraction from any particular user community or context. Some are
explicitly focused on creating a model of the world as conceptualized by
members of some community of practice. Some work within a domain and
some work across domains.
Frank Chum: We may need to certify the trainers first!
Arturo Sanchez: yes
Amanda Vizedom: It is absolutely critical that new ontologists have some
understanding of what practices they are part of, and be able to distill and
understand methodological guidances in that context.
Arturo Sanchez: So, that is another thread of discussion. What does ONTOLOG think
Arturo Sanchez: a good certificate program should look like ...
Arturo Sanchez: Wow, good ear!
Leo Obrst: I was going to mention the IAOA too, as a potential certifier
of the certification programs, to provide trustworthiness.
Steve Ray: @Leo - that might be a better legal entity to do the
certification of the certifiers than Ontolog.
Arturo Sanchez: Legal issues aside, ONTOLOG--as part of this upcoming summit--
Frank Chum: There is a class of people out there building database/xml
schemas and convert them into ontologies and then call themselves
ontologists
Bettina Schimanski: @Frank: That is another possibility for a module
topic. I do not have a background with database work but often when I
work with others who have, they want to know what benefits ontologies
offer that databases cannot provide. It is not often a straightforward
discussion.
Frank Chum: @Bettina: Yep. Explaining ontology concept to database people
can turn into lengthy discussions.
Bettina Schimanski: Great, I'm glad to hear Deb is already aware of the
summit and will be a part of it. I'm sure therefore that Jim knows about
it as well. I also agree that more than a Computer Science presence
needs to be there. Any suggestions?
Doug Holmes: There is a joint initiative between MIT and the University
of Southampton in England called The Web Science Research Initiative
(WSRI) that probably ought to be part of this summit...
Arturo Sanchez: propose a formal curriculum that would define what an
ontologist is ...
Bettina Schimanski: @Doug: On that same note, Rensselaer Polytechnic
Institute has two key Semantic Technologists (JimHendler and DebMcGuinness)
who have developed a curriculum that should perhaps also be
considered for inclusion in ths summit.
Doug Holmes: @Bettina I think it be very good to have Jim as part of this Summit
Peter P. Yim: @Bettina - I did speak to DebMcGuinness last week, and has
her support for this upcoming Summit
Arturo Sanchez: @Bettina: DeborahMcGuinness is an habitue of the summit
... it would be great to have James Hendler as well ...
Frank Chum: @Bettina: Yes, but both of them are computer scientist and
sometimes they are not the ideal people to do ontology modeling.
Arturo Sanchez: @FrankChum: "sometimes they are not the ideal people to
do ontology modeling." **this puzzles me ... can you elaborate?
Amanda Vizedom: @Barry - Suggestion: replace current module 13 (UCore) with a
module that surveys the landscape of existing, in-use ontologies: where
they come from, what there characteristics (logically, in use, etc.)
are, what they can and should be used for, how to find and assess more.
Pavithra Kenjige: Steve : I beleive to build Ontology one needs to
understand, logic of relationships of things, how they can be described
( properties) in ones domain. I am not sure where exactly the phsycology
fits in! However, people with phycology communicate with people well,
not necessarily things..
Doug Holmes: Thanks Ken; I have a very hard time distinguishing what we
seem to be talking about from knowledge engineering...
Bettina Schimanski: When I (a Computer Scientist) have designed
ontologies, I have often partnered with a Technical Librarian. That is
what made it successful in my opinion.
Leo Obrst: I periodically teach a series of 3 courses through our MITRE
Institute, each 8 hrs long: 1) Introduction to semantics, ontologies,
knowledge representation, and Semantic Web technologies; 2) a more
foundational course, Introduction to Logic and Logic Programming (this
really should be taught first, in my opinion); and 3) an advanced course
on Ontology Engineering and Applications of Ontologies. These are
currently scheduled independently, but I am considering teaching them in
sequence in one week. I've found these are too short at 8 hrs each, and
yet that is all people can allocate time for, at least here, i.e.,
maximally 24 hrs over 3 days.
Amanda Vizedom: Indeed, RPI is another frequent producer of nascent
ontologists, as is UMD. RPI seems to be coming out of CS. There are many
strong ontologists working today who came originally from Philosophy,
Linguistics, Information Sciences, and so forth. To be usable by folks
who want to hire ontologists, the certificate may incorporate elements
that originated in all of these and more, but the focus must be not on
theoretical background for its own sake, but on the actual knowledge and
skill needed to do good work as a working ontologist.
Peter P. Yim: @Amanda - I talked to Tim Finin (UMD) at ISWC last week, and he
is very supportive too!
Doug Holmes: I personally think that even a small step away from computer
science leads immediately and inevitably to philosophy and there is no
bottom to that swamp...
Frank Chum: @Auturo: As Bettina mentioned, with Librarian, also social
scientist, domain knowledge engineers.
Bettina Schimanski: Maybe it helps too that my background is in
Artificial Intelligence / Cognitive Science.
Bettina Schimanski: I think those fields might need to be included as
well.
Frank Chum: Philosopher too.
Arturo Sanchez: @FrankChum: strongly agree ... the ontology is the
collaborative product of modelers and--so-called--domain experts ...
Amanda Vizedom: @Doug: That's only true of bad philosophy. (half-joking,
bc I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but serious in saying that while
some critical elements come from philosophy, including conceptual
analysis, applied ontology (as opposed to the philosophical subfield of
ontology) is distinct from that ancestral home in part because it does
- not* include unconstrained swamp-diving, except when done badly.
Doug Holmes: @Amanda no slight intended to philosophers or Philosophy; it
just takes a very long time to resolve anything in that realm
Bettina Schimanski: @All: I enjoyed this discussion and look forward to
further ones. Unfortunately I need to leave now for another meeting.
Have a good day!
Steve Ray: @Bettina - thanks for your participation.
Mike Bennett: There are also a bunch of people at Brunel who are working
in the ontology area. Might be worth talking to them?
Peter P. Yim: @MikeBennett and all - can you, or anyone here, identify who
these people are ... and/or talk to them on behalf of this community
Mike Bennett: @Peter: will do. The person to talk to at Brunel is Sergio
de Cesare, I'll drop him a mail and copy you.
Peter P. Yim: @MikeBennett - great! thanks
Jeff Abbott: Peter and group, I just wanted to put down my input in
text, in case I don't get may audio working. We come from a Human
Systems Integration (HSI)perspective. We have the first HSI
certification program in the USA online at UCSD in San Diego, that is
supported by UCSD and SPAWAR. We always do an Analysis of Alternative
(AOA), see what's out there before we proceed as part of our process. We
are currently developing a HSI for the System Engineer course. Peter, I
just got back from the W3C and attended the HCLS Healthcare group (where
I also talked with Mark Musen) and the Healthcare group certainly uses
ontologies and deals with the integration of ontologies, which could be
a course by itself.
Jeff Abbott: Yes, System Engineering. We are doing the HSI to SE
(because it's in one of our domains) and would like to do Ontology to
SE.
Pavithra Kenjige: Jeff, I agree with that. I learnt it when I was
studying software systems engineering..
Bettina Schimanski: @Steve and Barry - thank you for your presentations
and proposals.
http://videolectures.net/Top/Computer_Science/Semantic_Web/Ontologies/
Jeff Abbott: Pavithra and group, you have to develop curriculum to the
audience and it's logic and level of ability and need.
Leo Obrst: @Todd: I taught an elective course on my topic 1 to UVA's
Accelerated Masters program in Systems Engineering.
Peter P. Yim: @Antony and All - please document the salient points you just
talked about on this chat board, if you please (that will help
tremendously when I start boiling the input down to a work plan, and to
manage follow-up activities)
Antony Galton: Just to put on written record what I was saying. The IAOA
include educational matters as an important part of its activities. One
thing we want to do is to compile a database of what is already out
there, i.e., existing courses or modules with ontological content, much
along the lines of what Arturo suggested, and I have already started
work on this - but so far I mainly only have material from the UK.
Another idea is to create a library of resources that teachers can draw
on when designing courses, e.g., research papers, tutorial material,
example ontologies in various formats, editing tools, etc. A third idea
is to put together a set of recommendations for a set of "standard"
curricula. This could relate to the idea that was mentioned about IAOA
being a possible certification or accreditation body for ontological
courses. Finally, I drew attention to the workshop we are planning to
hold at FOIS 2010 on ontology education - we will need to look at how we
can coordinate this with the activities of this summit. I'll be
distributing a call for contributions for this workshop soon.
Frank Chum: @Doug: Barry Smith was (or still is) a philosopher'
Jeff Abbott: You need a ontology basis to go between domains and get a
System of Systems view.
Mike Bennett: @Doug: I disagree profoundly. Ontology should be
multi-disciplinary (think santa Fe type of approach). It has
philosopical underpinnings if it's done right. IT/comp sci does not, if
it's done wrong
Arturo Sanchez: @AntonyGalton: great ideas! I'll look into the FOIS
workshop you mentioned ...
Amanda Vizedom: @Arturo, @Frank: Yes, this is a critical point of
difference between contemporary applied ontologists due and both some
theoretical ontology (in philosophy) and some historical projects: By
far the majority of projects are collaborative in many ways, including
between ontological specialists and subject matter experts. Many people
who have theoretical training turn out to be unable to do applied
ontology in such contexts. Also, a dismaying number of both
supposedly-trained ontologists and customers are unaware of the
substantial research that has taken place in the last 20 years --
especially the last 10 -- around these collaborations and the
consequences of moving the input/formalization closer to, or further
away from, the SMEs.
Peter P. Yim: Todd Schneider suggested that Barry Smith might come up with an
ontology on the domain of "education and training of ontologists"
Todd Schneider: So Barry, are you suggesting a department of ontology
would focus on research in the domain of ontology?
Doug Holmes: @Mike I think that a multi-disciplinary perspective is good
- probably essential, but I also think there is an essential engineering
perspective that has to be grounded in a particular product. That is, as
far as I can see, a computer science product...
Mike Bennett: @Doug, it is certainly engineering and should be grounded
in well established engineering methodology. This is what I don't tend
to see when IT folks who call themselves engineers, get hold of a new
toy or a new language to learn. Results can be variable!
Amanda Vizedom: @Doug: None taken! Just piping up because sometimes
people focus on the more abstracted or least empirically connected
schools, within certain subareas of philosophy, thinking that's all
there is. There are, however, a substantial number of us out here with
Ph.D.s in philosophy *and* many years of experience as working, applied
ontologists in non-academic environments. We do, however, tend to come
from more pragmatic schools of thought, and often from different
sub-areas within philosophy.
Doug Holmes: @Mike can't argue with that
Mike Bennett: @Doug and Amanda, I think we have a core module here
Frank Chum: @Amanda: Philosophers can be working ontologists too.
Doug Holmes: @Frank as long as its ontology with a "small o"
Amanda Vizedom: @Doug, @ Mike, and others: I agree that the engineering
aspect is critical. In fact, I might argue that the certificate client
organizations want is very importantly an *applied* ontology
certificate. I have seen too many people hire folks with theoretical
training only, and no engineering understanding or intuitions. This
causes project failure *and* gives the field a bad reputation.
Mike Bennett: @Amanda agree wholeheartdly. Maybe we should be talking to
engineering insstitutions
Doug Holmes: IEEE
Arturo Sanchez: @MichaelGruninger: good summary ... which sums up the
threads that can be defined for the summit ...
Peter P. Yim: we need "champions!"
Arturo Sanchez: "we don't need another hero" "Tina Turner"
Rex Brooks: I didn't want to inject a tangent, but I wish I had some
ontology students to help with doing ontologies for use in IT standards.
Jeff Abbott: Peter, I will send you my information and will be in
contact. thx
Peter P. Yim: @Jeff - yes ... thanks
Arturo Sanchez: Thanks y'all Nice weather here in NE Florida
Peter P. Yim: Great session ... I'll try to get the chat-transcript and
audio recording posted (onto the session page) within the next working
day ... please check back!
Terry Longstreth: @Peter: Could you put together a list of things people
could help on?
Peter P. Yim: @Terry ... I guess that would be what the "organizing
committee" will need to get to next - before the Ontology Summit 2010
Launch Event on 10-Dec-2009
Leo Obrst: I agree with Fabian, that we need to distinguish between
university (Masters level) curricula, and a professional curricula. I
personally think that they are the same. I would advocate a commmon
curriculum, which could be taught in 3 ways: 1)a university academic MS
degree in ontology engineering, which could be prelude to a PhD program;
2) a university terminal professional MS degree in ontology engineering;
3) a non-university professional accreditation course. In all cases,
there should be recognition via a certification: the first 2 via a
university degree, the 3rd via the course provider backed by
accreditation itself via a professional organization such as the
International Association for Ontology and its Applications.
Peter P. Yim: session adjourned 12:03pm PST
Peter P. Yim: Bye everyone ... closing chat session now! =ppy
- end of in-session chat-transcript -
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